22 January 2005 @ 03:29 pm
On flames and flaming  
A bunch of you are on the same lists I am and are well aware of the flames and arguments that flare up, especially amongst Xander het authors. I have to say I'm getting really, really sick of it. I've left the group best known for these threads and found new homes - not least on PYGS (have I thanked you for the invite to post there [livejournal.com profile] bastardsnow? 'Cause if not (and even if I have) thank you!) - and yet I'm now finding that the flames seem to be following me all over the place. Not me personally yet, and boy do I wish the flamers would target me because I'd be on them so fast they wouldn't know what hit them, but authors I have a great deal of respect for.

I'm not saying we should all get along, 'cause I for one don't want to live in a fascist society, but for crying out loud can't these flamers see that some of the things they say are actually not in the slightest bit clever and can actually be incredibly hurtful? Things like "It's because of people like you that I decided to write B/X stories for my own pleasure." which was a recent review of a fic on INAP. The person who left that review then went on to review every other story written by the poor soul they decided to target without actually referring to the story they were reviewing.

If I'd gotten a slew of reviews like that when I started writing fanfic I probably would never have published another fic to the web. I wouldn't have stopped writing, because to me that would be like stopping breathing, but I would have chosen the people I showed my stories to very carefully.

Xander authors are often disregarded in BtVS fic circles. He's not the most popular character to write for and tends to be overlooked a lot. Point in case - one of the awards sites Crimson Regret has been nominated for has it in the "In The Shadows" category for bit part characters. Why is it that we can't support one another? Why does it always have to descend into pointless personal attacks?

I'm an FXer. It's my ship of choice, but the fic I'm most proud of is a BX fic (What a Difference a Day Makes). The fic I find the most challenging to write is not a 'ship fic and is Scooby-centric rather than Xander-centric (Slayerless, not posted on LJ or ff.net yet). I have read Spuffy fics, I'm currently reading the slew of Spillow fics that seem to be over-taking the Spuffy ones in popularity even though I really dislike post Season 5 Spike, I read slash from time to time, I'll read pretty much anything so long as it's well written.

Just because I personally ship Faith/Xander doesn't mean I will jump on anyone who dares to write anything else.

I was going to go on, but I feel that I'll just be repeating what others have said better - [livejournal.com profile] liz_marcs' essay Stalking the Fanon Xander and [livejournal.com profile] m_mcgregor's essay I Don't Hate Buffy cover a lot of the points I would make so go read them if you haven't already.
 
 
Current Mood: annoyed
 
 
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[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:07 am (UTC)
Oh, yeah. Sing it sister! Testify!

And yeah, there's a *headdesk* element there about what's going on at PYGS. For a second, I thought it was because of me. *heh*

But so far, it's confined to that one thread and hasn't spilled over on to others, so it's okay as it stands. I'm staying away because I don't need another wanktastic flamewar (I'm currently involved in one over on the BSG Yahell Group where I was *not* on my best behavior...one nutjob is trying to take out people who like the new BSG, even though most of us have been on the list waaaaay longer than he has, including me.)

But...Xander? A bit part character? Hunh? When did that happen? "Crimson Regret" is about a bit part character? Good grief.

Although I disagree that Xander's overlooked per se. More like het versions of Xander are overlooked because in the slash realm he's a very, very popular character (second only to Spike, really).

It really is a case of two people with very differing views on a character butting heads. I honestly don't know who started that one and I'm a little afraid to ask because I generally like both of the people involved. *calls me switzerland*

I suspect BS and Drake will step in if it starts taking over to the point where it starts spawning multiple threads. I hope.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:24 am (UTC)
It's just bizarre to me that the thread on PYGS flared up at the exact same time the flames started to show up on INAP - not that the two are connected, it's completely different peopel involved. Since I left XZ I guess I'd forgotten just how flame-tastic some of the threads could get and I guess I figured I'd never see the likes again. *sigh*

And how could I have forgotten the Spander fics? *headdesk* I guess I could justify my brain melt by saying I see them more as Spike fics rather than Xander ones but that would be a complete lie. *grin* (plus Xander/Lindsey fics? My own personal slash ship of choice...)
[identity profile] rileysaplank.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:37 am (UTC)
What about Xander/Oz fics as well? *grins* (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:41 am (UTC)
*smiles*

Not a ship I'd read much of in the past to be honest, but it's not one I'm averse to. Go write more to convince me of the merits!
[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:55 am (UTC)
Xander/Oz. The fuzzy slash of choice.

If you like Xander/Lindsey, I think [livejournal.com profile] othercat is writing "The One Who Sees" which is pretty good. It's in her memories.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:58 am (UTC)
Oh thanks for the link! I'd been reading this on the LindseyFic Yahoo group but lost track of the updates - now I can start from the beginning again!
[identity profile] rileysaplank.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 10:00 am (UTC)
There is a new update, which'll get posted to everywhere on Monday, it's across at [livejournal.com profile] fanfic_fiesta at the minute though.
[identity profile] bastardsnow.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:27 am (UTC)
Actually, I already did. That thread was *technically* on topic, but it was rather pointless and I kindly asked people to stop talking about it.

The next time it will not be so kind.

I'm trying to get in the habit of being a semi-strict mod, so that things like... uh... oh, what's the example... oh! Right! Losing authors. Don't want that to happen.

Also, Drake and I will be posting some (hopefully) funny guidelines (but guidelines nonetheless) within a day or so. So that should be fun.

-Mark
[identity profile] m-mcgregor.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:49 am (UTC)
When it comes to what's going on over at PYGS, I don't get too upset. The degneration of the debate is due to a usual suspect or two, and frankly I'm never surprised when these few people cause a debate to become a rehashing of the same points over and over and over and over and over again. It's why I kind of refused to actually get involved with attempting to argue with them. We all know it's entirely pointless. If I regret anything, it's actually responding in the first place, even if that response was pretty much, "I'm not arguing with you because it's pointless."

Quick question though: There's still one person, a lurker, who wrote a well-thought out and seemingly open-minded reply. I was planning on responding to them, but would you and Drake rather I just let the whole thread die at this point? I could always reply via e-mail if you'd rather I not do it on list.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:51 am (UTC)
Not about the PYGS thread, but the essay as posted on INAP - you've gotten reviews for it. Thought you'd like to know. *g*
[identity profile] bastardsnow.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 10:08 am (UTC)
I just posted a uh... clarification of my 'cease and desist' thing. So go ahead =)

And I agree, you probably shouldn't have responded in the first place, but... sometimes you just can't help yourself. Trust me. I know the feeling. No worries. =)
[identity profile] bluegreensmoke.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:09 am (UTC)
Interesting post. I've never really understood the raging arguments (wars, practically) that happen in this fandom. As people with similar interests, you'd think all the things we have in common compared to other people we know would allow us to agree to disagree in a civil fashion rather than act like 12 year olds. There are only so many fans of BTVS in the world, and an even fewer number of them have Xander as a favorite character. It would be nice if people could just support the writers that put out quality Xander fic. Constructive criticism is fine, but the venom is ridiculous.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:25 am (UTC)
Exactly. The flamers just seem to jump on anyone who dares suggest that, for example, Buffy isn't the heartless bitch they see her as. BtVS fandom is, as you say, small enough as it is without spintering it further by attacking each other.
[identity profile] bastardsnow.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:29 am (UTC)
You have thanked me, and I appreciate it again, and again, you are very welcome. We're happy to have you.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:31 am (UTC)
*grin*

And I've just changed the email address I use for the group to one I actually do check on a daily basis (daily? who am I kidding, more like every five minutes) so I can actually post more than lurk!
[identity profile] bastardsnow.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:34 am (UTC)
Woo! And this is the reason I shall be attempting to keep a reign on stupid-ass regurgitations of months- or years-old arguments. So that the lovely folk (such as yourself) are not driven away but the non-lovely folk (such as a certain person, who will remain unnamed, but is apparently three dimensional... and a master at it...)

And now, having just woken up at approxmiately 11:15 in the morning to a snowy day... I shall have breakfast. Why am I telling you this, you may wonder?

Because it seemed like the thing to do at the time. So long!
[identity profile] liz-marcs.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 08:53 am (UTC)
I love you. Seriously.

That is the funniest insider joke I've ever seen. ("...master of it..." heh)

But I'm glad your quashing that. When I saw two people of that caliber posting in that thread, I was ready to duck and cover. (One the Master and the other with a second sign-on name that caused me at first to wonder what happened to Drake's sense of humor the first few times I saw it...)

But go quash. I love guidelines. They make everyone keep it polite. Debate I don't mind. Flamewars? Totally mind.
[identity profile] bastardsnow.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 10:10 am (UTC)
You love me? OH HAPPY DAY!

*dances around for a few minutes until someone whispers 'I don't think she meant it like that...'*

Er. Shit.

*runs and hides and weeps*
[identity profile] shannon730.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 10:37 am (UTC)
Xander's a bit part character?

Okay, I admit I am not a Xander fan. Never have been, but he's a major character.

But now that I think about it, in terms of SoGA, I don't see a lot of Xander fics being nominated. Not het fics anyway. Lots of Spander, and a decent amount of Xander/Angel, but rarely do I get het fics.

I've never understood the flaming thing. Very likely because I won't purposely set out to hurt people and thats what they're doing. (Okay the people nominating stupid things at SoGA may be the exception) And I also don't understand why they bother reading and commenting on things they don't like. Honestly, I wish I had that kind of time. I don't have time to read and comment on all the fics that I DO like.
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[identity profile] m-mcgregor.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 10:52 am (UTC)
So I checked out INAP, and wasn't too surprised at finding out who's been writing the flame reviews. I've noticed this particular author seems to have something of a chip on his shoulder. In one of his reviews for a story of mine, he decided that five reviews was more than I deserved. Hopefully most authors who get reviews like the ones he's been leaving will understand to take him with a grain of salt.

Still, it does confuse me when someone has to personally insult an author if they don't like a story. [livejournal.com profile] physicsteach is a great example of someone who can leave constructive criticism for a story without being insulting. But to just say, "Hey why don't you concentrate on writing a story if you want to be a good author?" is just ridiculous.

Oh well. Being baffled by flamers is nothing new. Hopefully a few bad apples won't spoil the otherwise great little community over at INAP.
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[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:02 am (UTC)
I'm sorry Sho, but I get pretty annoyed by Buffy fans (Tenhawk, Skippcomet, and now it seems McGregor) who seem to go round demand that every one like their Buffy.

I don't read Buffy stories because I don't like them. But neither do I feel the urge to demand that others change their opinions to fit mine. Unlike Buffy's fans.

So you can colour me annoyed too. By the arrogance of Buffy fans.
[identity profile] m-mcgregor.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:29 am (UTC)
Once again, I don't demand youlike Buffy.

I just say that having Xander not like her, particularly a story that takes place during S1-S7, is going against his character. Please don't confuse the two. You can like or dislike anyone you want.

You are not Xander. He does not think the way you do. He loves Buffy and he loves Willow. You may hate Buffy and you may hate Willow, that doesn't change how Xander feels about them. I'm not talking about any opinion there, I'm talking about a simple fact about his character. It's possibly one of his most important character traits, and to ignore it is to do the character a disservice.

It seems to me that you're reading more into what I'm saying than is actually there. You don't have to like anyone, but if you're trying to write Xander in character, then you have to have him liking them, at least at first. If you want to work that into an eventually dislike or hatred, I'm sure it's possible to make that seem natural. But to just have it pop up out of nowhere is ridiculous.

If that's arrogant, then I guess I'm arrogant.
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:31 am (UTC)
Whatever. You keep demanding I do things your way, I'll keep ignoring you.

Do me the same courtsey.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:40 am (UTC)
Guys. You're not going to agree, we all know this. Have the courtesy to either not bitch at each other or do it on your own journals.
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:42 am (UTC)
Actually Sho, not to correct you, but you brought the subject up.

Don't worry though, I won't be saying anymore.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:44 am (UTC)
Yes I brought the subject up, I did not say "please feel free to use my journal to make the same tired arguments you've made a hundred times before."
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:49 am (UTC)
Sorry for having an opinion, that diverges from you, but hey don't worry. Won't hear from he again.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 11:54 am (UTC)
I'm sorry you feel like that, I haven't argued with what you've said or said I disagreed with you at all. You don't know right now whether my view diverges from yours.

All I'm asking is that you - and Mac, and everyone else who comments here - show a little courtesy to each other. Other people have opinions, if you don't agree with them that's fine but don't just dismiss them out of hand because they're not your own.
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:14 pm (UTC)
Yes, shame on you. In Mac's defence though I don't think he was
being defensive, we've all seen how abusive Buffy fans can be on
other groups, just stating his opinion. Which he is entitled to.
Like you I don't like his protrayal of Buffy (although in plot,
innovation, and dialouge he blows the hell out of me), but that's
just opinion and he's entitled to it.


What I typed on Thursday when Mac was getting flamed on one group for daring to have a pro-Buffy stance.

Broad-minded enough for you?
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:19 pm (UTC)
Keith. Fuck off and don't put words in my mouth.

When did I ever say I didn't like Mac's portrayal of Buffy? Never. I know this because I do like Mac's portrayal of Buffy, he's made me sympathetic to a character I genuinly hated by the end of season seven.

You seem to be taking my response as a personal attack on you, it's not. I thought we were friends. Guess I was wrong about that.
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:20 pm (UTC)
Actually I was the one defending Mac from attacks from others on the Faith and the Zeppo group not you.

And the language?

Grow up.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:28 pm (UTC)
Do you even realise that the last two comments you've made here don't really have any relation to the comment you're replying to?

Shame on me? For what? Genuinly - I have no idea what you're referring to.

I wasn't talking about anything on the Faith & Her Zeppo group. My original post was talking about PYGS and a group of three people who've been leaving abusive reviews on the INAP site. Mac replied to a comment you made and you jumped down his throat. I asked both of you to take your personal disagreement elsewhere and now you're lashing out at me. If anyone should be ashamed here, it sure as hell isn't me.
[identity profile] keith5by5.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:31 pm (UTC)
And yet strangely, I'm not the one resorting to abusive language.
[identity profile] whiskyinmind.livejournal.com on January 22nd, 2005 12:33 pm (UTC)
Nor are you answering the question.

I'm done with this, you're just posting now so you can have the last word. Well be my guest. I thought we were friends, guess not.