I think that stories sometimes need an OC, especially if it's post Chosen. And I'd say that it's the same process of stopping any of the characters becoming a Mary Sue/Marty Stu. As long as you have a good character background written out for them I don't see any problems in that department though.

So what you're saying is that you would have a complete character background worked out for the OC whether or not all that detail actually works its way into the fic. Good point.

I'm intrigued as to why you think fics need an OC - care to elaborate?

Yep, have a complete background worked out. It then gives you a sense of who they are and how they're likely to act in certain situations. That's probably the RPGer in me coming out, but I feel it definately helps give you a sense of who the person is.

Certain fics I'd say yes, but they'd be Post Chosen. Giles isn't going to stop looking for the now activated slayers is he? You've got a choice of what to do with Buffy, if she keeps fighting you're going to need new big bads. If she stops, she's going to need to meet new people. If you're going to explore the characters in the year after Chosen, you're going to have to use new characters unless you're keeping the character count very low.

In those kind of situations you need to introduce original characters, just to keep the story interesting and not re-tread the same old tired plots.

I gotta say I agree with you Andy about the backgrounds. It's what I keep meaning to do with Robyn in New Blood, as I feel she was probably a little Mary-Sueish when I first started writing that fic. I suppose it might be an idea with the OC (and the semi-OC) in the xover I've been working on as well.

But I agree that they add more interest to a story, especially, as Andy says. Post-Chosen. If you stick with the same characters you're eventually going to reach a dead end, because there's no-one to introduce a different dynamic to the group. Change is what makes fics interesting, and adding a new character is one of the best ways of introducing change as people react differently to someone new.

As for WC... tonight....

I still think there's a lot of mileage left in the core characters post-Chosen without neccesarilly bringing in newcomers. I do take your point, however, that there will conceivably come a time when as a group there will be nothing new to say unless someone new enters the picture.

Heh, we talking Eilidh here?

Well, much of what little I write is centred round OC's anyway, so the Mary Sue issue - i.e. the problem of introducing a convincing and significant OC into the established group - doesn't come up; rather it's the standard problem of creating decent charactarisations.

I think some of the chief Mary Sue excesses to be avoided are

- Making your OC too perfect. They need to be human and have flaws, and not be able to do anything. As Andy says, having a good character background written out would probably help.

- On the flip side, making the regular characters uncharachteristically stupid and incapable so that Mary Sue can solve all the problems and save the day. Thinking about it, Jonathan in Superstar is the arch-Mary Sue!

- Projecting yourself too much onto the OC. Again, having a good character background in your mind should guard against this.

- A particular warning sign might be putting the character in a romantic relationship with your own favourite character. I don't know if you're planning on Elilidh/Xander - I wouldn't say don't do it, but that's where you'd need to be most careful and avoid subconsciously make it your own fantasised relationship with the character.

These are all extremes, and actually I don't believe that you could remotely fall into them unless you were actually doing it deliberately (a la liz_marcs!) Probably the main thing to watch for is the tendency to push the OC to the fore; obviously they may need to have a prominent role, but you need to watch for getting carried away with your liking for the character, and against pushing the other characters into the background.

Those are just a few off-the-cuff thoughts, I don't claim to be an expert!

Above all: You're a bloody good writer. Don't let the fear of Mary-Suedom deter you from carrying on with it. If you are aware of the pitfalls, then you have more than enough skill and imagination to avoid them. Trust yourself.

Heh, we talking Eilidh here? - l'il bit. Not so much stressing about writing her, but having caught myself about to fall into the MS traps I was intrigued what other people thought of OCs. That said, the draft of the next part that I almost had ready to send you? Pretty much being re-writtne from scratch now!

The majority of your fic (certainly your more recent ones anyway) are in a strange category for me in that they don't feature any existing characters and instead features the themes. Does that make them fanfic? I'm not sure. They're bloody good (as I've told you in the past and will tell you again repeatedly until you write more!)

Hee. Well, hope to see the revised version before long! Though certainly Eilidh hasn't smelt of Mary Sue so far.

And thanks for the encouragement to do more writing! :) Now that the readthrough is out of the way, hopefully that'll start happening again.

I think I would class my Tales of the Slayer stories as fanfic, in that they completely come out of the Buffy universe. So all the concepts of exactly what is a vampire, of the Slayer, Watcher, Council, etc. etc., are all there for me, and are all instantly recognisable to the reader, without having to go through the process of building up that world and the assumptions behind it. When I say "Jane is the Vampire Slayer", this tells the reader an awful lot and carries a great deal of associated ideas and repercussions that I don't need to make explicit.

Still, think my next project might be Post-Chosen rather than TotS.

Unless there's a structural reason for it (i.e., an outsider's view of the Scoobs), the OC should never be the central focus of the story. The way I view it, people are reading your story because it's fanfiction, not because they want to read about your precious babies.

For something like Whisper, where Dolly was at best at the preriphery of the action, it was pretty easy. She was simply a background character who, at best, stepped into the spotlight in only the final chapter. If it was the television show, she'd be a "guest star."

For Living History, the Mary Sue element was something I was actually afraid of with Catherine. Certainly she had elements: mysterious stranger (someone from the future), with close ties with existing characters (descendant of not just one but two members of the Scoobs), who was well-trained and competent, a leader in her own group, etc., etc.

To make up for those elements, I purposely built in flaws into her character (her temper, her inability to deal with technology, her unreasonable dislike for Robin, that the situation she found herself in was over her head, the fact she'd get flustered, and that she could be just plain wrong about a lot of things), and made damn sure that the Scoobs didn't entirely trust her, although they were willing to go along and help her in her mission.

She was "a" focus of the story (in that some parts were from her POV), but not the central focus. Furthermore, anything we saw of Catherine and her people in Living History was still about the Scoobs, even though the Scoobs might not be involved in the conversation.

Another thing is the physicial description. Unless your character is 1) a demon; 2) an alien; 3) a magical creature in and of themselves they should look human. Brown eyes, not violet, thanks; dirty blonde hair, not "a flowing main the shone in the sun, please; not "dainty like a bird," because I'll think you've got something against tall women who look like they have to hit the gym to keep in shape.

Then there's the aspect of powers: unless they're required for the story, they shouldn't have 'em. If they need powers, they shouldn't necessarily be all-powerful (although they can be more knowledgeable/powerful/stronger than your canon characters, but not overwhelmingly so). If you need a large number of skill sets to work from, split those skill sets up and make damn sure that your canon characters can't fill those roles. Again, for example, in Living History, I have OCs Catherine (the Watcher), J'Nal (the witch/tech expert), Charlie (the combat medic), and Ruda (the Slayer). If Catherine had all these skills, that would be a Mary Sue because she'd be too powerful. Because she had a defined role (Watcher) and had very specific limitations (her technology skills are limited to pushing a button, if it worked great, if not, she went to J'Nal or Charlie for help; plus, normal human, not a Slayer, so killing giant snakes with bare hands was so very out).

Truthfully, if you're going to do an original character (or up to four in the case of Living History), I just don't see how the story can be short. You do have to introduce the character(s) over the course of the story you have to bring in their good points and flaws. To dump a lot of information in the readers' lap about who and what they are and what they look like and where they come from....etc. is both overwhelming and boring.

I can only say that in avoiding a Mary Sue, it depends on the character, the situation you're writing, the size of the role for that character, etc. Sometimes it's relatively easy (Dolly from Whisper, Haley from Water Hold Me Down) and sometimes it's relatively hard (Catherine from Living History and her entire crew), but it's more of a function of their roles in the story than the characters themselves.

And then you do something stupid like me and deliberately write a Mary Sue-ish character (Inez from No Myth). Although I think I've failed in that regard because we actually had a debate on whether she actually qualified as a Mary Sue since, you know, she doesn't act like one and instead acts like a demon who wants to eat Xander's head.

So maybe I just suck at writing Mary Sues and you should ignore me. :-)

Liz,
It's not that you suck at writing Mary-Sues, it's that you're in the habit of -not- writing them. Breaking a habit is not only hard, it's uncomfortable.

Mara,
I believe OCs become Mary-Sues when they take over the story and send all the other characters, plot, and storyline to a distant second.

Mara speaks the truth. In my early days of reading fanfic, back during season 4 when I had no WB affiliate and I hadn't heard of a Mary Sue yet, the two biggest Sues I came across were actually Stus. The evil monstrosity known as the Wandererverse (if you don't know, take my word for it -- it's just plain bad wish fulfillment self-insertion mega-crossover-palooza suckyness) and Michael K. Donovan's "Seventh Son" series that I found at www.slayerette.org. Both examples of male writers writing male characters who come to Sunnydale, muscle aside almost all other characters, and by dint of their power/wisdom/experience, take their place as Buffy's new partner in slaying and romantic interest, while all but taking over the spotlight. Y'know, more or less what happened with Spike. :eyeroll

Read the Wanderverse, almost as bad as the Jverse which actually Marty Stus existing characters. Haven't read the Seventh Son though, I'll give it a miss.

But you're right, Joss defnitely Marty Stued his love child. And look what a mess that turned the show into.

As a J-verse writer, I'm going to have to say 'HEY!' to that... In my opinion, I have not once Marty Stu'ed any of the characters I have written in the J-verse.

Am so not going to argue with you about what Spike became though... I have to wonder, who championed/pushed the whole rapist/redeemer thing with Spike, because, they need lots of therapy and I wouldn't let them date any of my friends.

IceWing

Actually I was talking about Tenhawk, yourself and Kosh_len do great jobs with the characters. Tenhawk's carrying out a hommoerotic love affair with himself and Xander locked in a deadly embrace.

Amen to that!

For me, it's the power dynamic. In BTVS, Buffy is the most powerful of the heroes, being closely matched but slightly better than the other Slayers. When someone shows up and matches or exceeds her in power, that is a Mary Sue.

Hypothetical situation here - what if the story (presumably it would have to be post-Chosen) centered around the new character being a better Slayer than Buffy? Would the conflict between Buffy and this new character be enough to keep her an interesting character? Or would she descend into the realms of Mary Suedom as soon as it was apparent she was more powerful than Buffy?

Well, that's essentially the story (beyond the "dark powa" and Spike & Dru and the assassins) behind "What's My Line", and kinda, to a point, about "Faith, Hope and Trick". Kendra knew more about slaying and the research part than Buffy did. Faith was free, unconflicted and seemingly happy with her lot when Buffy was still reeling from Angel and getting her life and head together. In both cases, Buffy felt that, in a major way, she was the lesser slayer, until it turned around and (because the whole 'verse is named after her) she was proved the better or at least the equal.

So, if one of the lesser, drawing-from-scythe-power-and-created-by-Buffy slayers proved greater than Buffy. that would throw the balance way off and make me think Mary Sue, yes.

Unless....

I have a bunny where a new, enlisted in the US Army slayer and disgraced watcher meet, slayer bumps into another slayer and fights to a standstill, doesn't know the events of Sunnydale but somehow finds the source and spells from "Get It Done" and takes on the black ooky power. That slayer would be, in all physical senses, a greater slayer, but as the saying goes, age and guile beat youth and innocence. I'm not sure how they'd interact together. I have another bunny where someone goes after what seems to be a new slayer, but it's actually somebody redoing "The Witch" with a track-star instead of cheerleader focus. But then, that's a villain, not an OC, and there's a long history of Buffy defeating physically much stronger villains. (Demon robot, Ted robot, Kakistos, ADAM, Glory, etc.)

I guess my point is a weaker, less thought-through version of Liz's. She's been thinking about this a lot harder than I have.

I'll be honest. After being burned by every OC-featuring fic I ever read, I will no longer read ANY story with an OC. No matter who has written it.


Gabrielle

Even Mine?

Sorry, but yes. I do not read ANY fic with an OC. EVER! I am too traumatized.


Gabrielle

I must admit, my own bad experiences with Mary Sues/Marty Stus has burned me to the extent that I tend to not read the stories unless I either know the author's other work or if it's been recommended to me by someone whose judgement I trust.

You're more trusting than I am. I have two friends who have written stories with OC's and, despite how much I enjoy their other work, I will not read those stories. Thankfully, they have forgiven me for that.


Gabrielle

I've written two OCs. My very first fic has an OC. Both characters had mapped out backgrounds that were introduced into the story when relevant to the situation. They could not be replaced by another character; they were individuals and had motivations that drove the plot. Neither of them were like an of the canon characters. I enjoyed writing both of them because they could do things that Willow or Buffy or Cordelia would not be believed as doing and it gave me a bit of freedom there.

I wrote for a virtual series ("Heroes"), so creating OCs became a necessity. For most of my eps, I stuck to villains, though, so they were allowed to be a little better than the Scoobies, because they were evil and eventually defeated/humiliated. I created one truly sympathetic antagonist, who turned into an ally, but she wasn't perfect. She was just starting out as a slayer and wasn't quite emotionally mature enough to handle the power surge.

For the most part, I create OCs if the story needs them. Usually they're minor supporting characters or simply serve the plot. If it comes about that they end up taking a larger role, I usually do my best to make them second bananas. People read fanfic to see the further adventures of Xander, Buffy, etc. not Alexia Bretodeaux, SuperSlayer.

As for shipping OCs... I'll do it, I guess. It's only come up the once, and I played it coy. I don't think anybody even noticed.

I hardly take a dim view of OCs - they're everywhere and it's nearly impossible to write a long fic without creating at least a few minor ones, even if it's the grocery clerk with the nosering who has three lines. I can usually tell if I'm going to have a Mary Sue problem from the summary - if you can't get through your brief synopsis without making an OC the subject, then I'm going to have a problem.

The point about an original character taking dominating the plot is a good one, that would be one of the primary indicators to me of Mary Suedom as well. On the other hand there are writers who stay within the Whedonverse (for want of a better word) and yet focus solely on original characters - smhwpf for example writes 'Tales of the Slayers' type fics without featuring any characters from either show and they're still immensely readable.

Avoiding perfection in the character seems to be a recurring thread here - giving them flaws which make them recognisably human does seem to be the most important thing.

I so should read these replies before I hit post!

By 'taking dominating' I mean either 'taking over' or 'dominating' - your choice!

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The problem with most Mary Sues is that they're the best of all possible people. Infallible, unbeatable and generally... well, perfect. If you can manage to stay away from perfection, and make your OC's a human being, pretty much you're gonna be okay.

Giving them flaws, making them human (or demon as the case may be) does seem to be the overriding factor here.

What about the Superstar hypothetical? What if the OC appears to the canon characters to be the bestest of the best but the reader is aware of the flaws in their character, does that basic conflict stop them from slipping into MSdom?

I think it does stop them of their MSness. Much like No Myth by liz_marcs, it's been noted a couple of times, I think, that her MS isn't *really* an MS because the readers (and, well, Xander) do know that she's not perfect.

I think the MSness arises from the reader seeing that the MS is 'perfect' whether the characters do or not (cuz sometimes the characters get dislike the MS, but this is obviously cuz she's, like, so cool omg soooooo hott and like they totally r ment 2 be together 4eva! and the character is just stupid! jealous.)

In some fics, it's a requirement. Of those Chosen: the Dreamers, and This Little Light are examples of (IMO) excellent fics that are *hugely* dependent upon well-written and engaging Original Characters.

Other fics, I find them to be a bit annoying. Even if the fic itself is otherwise good, I don't want to see anyone upstaging Willow at magic, or Buffy at vampire slayage, or funnier than Xander or bitchier than Cordelia or out-cooling Oz. Giles suffers the worst from OCs, IMO, since new characters coming into a fic often have some sort of inside information on whatever the plot point revolves around, putting them into the 'Giles' space by default, and sidelining his usefulness as 'guy who knows stuff.'

Anyone who horns in on another Scoobs specialties gets on my nerves. Ironically, the show itself often does this. Robin Wood wanders on-stage in season seven, and vampires *from across the country* have heard of him and consider him a dangerous threat, despite the fact that the average Sunnydale vampire has never heard of Buffy. This is the real danger zone, the establishment of the OC. If they show up and impress all of the 'normal' characters, it can immediately turn readers invested in those 'normal characters' off, before they get into the meat of the story and find out that it might have redeeming features, or the character might have some reason for this dramatic presentation.

Some of my favorite OC's aren't really OC's, just developments on canonical characters that weren't ever fleshed out. The vampire Sheila, for example, from School Hard.

Set

Add Not Even Jimmy Olsen to my list of entertaining fics that absolutely depend on a well-written OC. Very 'Lower Decks,' in that it takes an outsider view of a standard day in the lives of the Scoobs.

Set

You make a good point about the development of canon characters into what are essentially original characters - there are plenty of fics out there featuring Sheila, Devon, Larry and all the other people who were in the show long enough to be given a name but not long enough for us to learn their history.

One example is that I wrote the part of Vi in a post-Chosen RPG and she was essentially an original character for me because what little we saw of her on the show didn't give enough background to be able to predict her future actions. I've seen Vi feature in other writers' post-Chosen stories and she's a completely different character in each story.

Interesting question. In the Buffyverse I haven't created that many OC's, even in passing for stories; just didn't work out that way. On the other hand, in other fandoms, I've created a few. Sometimes they worked, sometimes they didn't.

I have managed mostly not to Mary Sue them, by giving the series characters as much and more time than the OC. It's easy to make an OC who's a catalyst, who gets the plot rolling, but then you have to back off and make sure that the series characters get a chance to play. Otherwise you're writing original fic, so what's the point?

On the other other hand-- I just kicked off a challenge in BSG fandom for "common people". That is to say, stories that don't focus on the main characters. OC's and minor series characters welcome; but the focus is fleshing out the Galactica-verse, which we've only got 13 eps and 4 miniseries hours to work with before July. So it's not so much the OC that's the focus, as the entire situation and the universe, which is short on detail right now due to lack of canon.

Realism, I guess, is the key with OC's. The best OC out there is in Rheanna's "In the Waiting" - first person POV and all. But the character is a normal guy, a psychiatrist, who's been yanked into a weird situation with Angel Investigations, so you get this wonderful outsider's view of Cordy, Wes, and Angel; they're the focus, not Dr. Kiely. He's just a normal divorced middle-aged guy, not a schmuck or a geek, but *normal*, who's trying to cope with new knowledge.

*sigh* I MS'd-kinda, in a Forever Knight story I wrote nearly ten years ago. Emerald eyes, impressive vampire, the whole thing-- but I didn't make her the heroine or the villain. And I didn't give her a happy ending, or let her solve the problems in the story-- she needed two of the series characters' help to do that. It's a mistake I think you make when you're younger, trying to make people *like* your character a little too much. When you get more experience, you get the confidence to let your people stand or fall on their own.

Honestly, I think the sure fire way to avoid a character being a Mary Sue is to just plain write a good character.

And good characters have flaws.

By writing a good, three dimensional character, with both good and bad attributes, well rounded, etc, you can pretty much guarantee avoiding the Mary Sue issue. I think Liz Marks may have said it better, she has an example to work from.

With smaller characters, the ones that lurk in the background and fill it out, I usually start with one specific, unusual character trait (so-and-so REALLY hates fish, Chloe loved Winnie the Pooh, that sort of thing), and develop from there. Helps keep your larger scenes from becoming faceless mobs.

It's all down to the writing. A good writer will produce believable original characters, a bad writer will produce Mary Sues (or cardboard cutouts with no personality).

Some of the best BtVS/AtS fic writers have created original characters who have rapidly gained their own followings (rahirah's Evie, spikewriter's Mike and Harry, enigmaticblues' Nika, tesla321's Sunny Collins; I have been told that my own Bahey Dhone also qualifies, although I'm hardly an unbiased source with regard to counting myself among the best writers!).

Such well-written original characters don't overshadow the canon Scoobies, they just fill roles that are necessary to the story and for which none of the canon characters are suitable. If you would have to distort a canon character to fill a role then obviously it's preferable to create an OC.

Sometimes fleshing out a minor canon character (e.g. Tarantula from "Hell's Bells", Lawson from "Why We Fight", etc) works well, and is always an option worth considering, but often there is simply no alternative to creating a new character if you are to tell the story you want to tell.

The Mary Sue temptation is there if the story you want to tell is of how an outsider comes in and puts everything right. Of course no one would want to read such a story anyway regardless of the Mary Sue aspect! If the new character actually makes things worse, or if the canon characters regard him/her as an interfering busybody and bitterly resent the OC, now it's beginning to look more like a readable story!

Of course the BtVS writers were not immune to coming up with Mary Sues themselves. Andrew, for a start; and Cassie, who was treated with undeserved reverence and mourned to a ridiculous extent (even by Scoobies who hadn't met her!); but the classic example is (ptah!) Kennedy. But we will speak of her no more.

And, of course, fanfic writers are perfectly capable of hijacking canon characters and turning them into Mary Sues. For some reason the most popular character to suffer this treatment is Xander, and that's made me wary of reading stories centred around him. Any fic in which Xander retains significant knowledge from his Halloween soldier costume, or retains any powers from his hyena possession, is almost bound to be a load of crap (and Xander Sues are never funny, because much of Xander's humour is self-deprecating). Better a blatant Mary Sue than this!

The approach I take is simple: my OCs are bit players and sometimes catalysts to the action, but never the solution to a problem.

The story is about the canon characters, regardless of which story I'm writing. Obviously they have to interact with people who are out there already. They can't only deal with people they already know -- we didn't see enough "others" during the course of the show. Therefore, they must meet new people. But these new people should only serve the purpose of the story, which is to tell a tale of the canon characters, and nothing more.

For instance, in The Twins, I created Katharine and Audrey Beckford. They're twins, and the story is called the twins, but the story isn't about them, even though they're featured fairly heavily. The story is about Faith and Xander, primarily, with Robin, Kennedy, Willow, Buffy, Dawn, and Giles playing secondary roles. Kat and Audrey are the catalysts (the first Slayers found), but they aren't the focus -- they bring the others into focus for the story. The same with Cole, the vampire who serves as the antagonist.

I think that's the main thing -- are they the focus, or are they there to bring the canon characters into better (or a new) focus.

Cole's an amazing OC, one of the best written. Different enough to make him interesting while not falling into any of the well-worn traps.

Thanks!

The first draft of my first novel, the main character (by definition an OC) was a terrible Mary Sue. It took me a long time to make him the likeable asshole he turned out to be, and that experience has made it easier for me to create characters whose flaws are celebrated (in an odd way) as much as their strengths. It's so much easier when you start 'em off flawed.

I've had a lot of fun writing OCs, and I think most of 'em have managed to be well rounded enough to have some entertaining faults.

I write a few OCs on a regular basis. I write a virtual series focusing on Connor (*plug* nyazian *plug*), so he needed some Stanford friends. I've found that it's just a matter of believability. You have to BELIEVE these characters could actually exist within the Buffyverse. That means that they're NOT perfect and they're real people, even if they're demons.

My main OCs are Salome Simpson, Jamie Black and Oni Kato. They're all regulars on the series and would probably be defined as Connor's "Slayer-ettes".

If I were ever accused of MS-dom, I'd probably get it on Salome, just by virtue of the fact that she's (1) a demon. (2) recent become Connor's girlfriend (3) Can kick some butt. But she's got flaws... because, dude, writing a character with no flaws is freakin' BORING. She doesn't think before she acts (which usually gets her ass kicked). She's deathly afraid of one of the main villains. She's also an Art History student... Who is terrible at art (She says "Behind every Art History student is a frustrated artist). And for some raised in the demon world, she's not terribly knowledgable on it.

Jamie would be classified as the "Zeppo". He's got no magical powers, he's only recently been introduced to the world of magic. As a switch from most of the other characters in the Buffyverse, Jamie is STILL unable to accept the world. It takes him a long time to actually believe what's going on around him. He's also got major guilt, due to the fact he unwittingly spied on Connor for his W&H lawyer father (which eventually led to his sister's murder). But he's a highly intelligent guy who is quite good at making things like weapons. And his hockey games with Connor are funny.

Oni Kato, who is the newest OC, is a human-raised-by-demons who has JUST been introduced to the human world through college. It could probably be said that she rivals Giles when it comes to information. But unlike Giles she has absolutely no idea how to put it to practice. She does not know how to deal with humans or with any sort of personal interaction. Some parallels have been drawn to Anya, but the approach is very different, as Anya craves the interaction while Oni prefers her books.

All in all... I think I've dodged the MS bullet. While the original characters are very important to the plot, and they all have their own arcs, it comes down to CONNOR. He's the hero of the story. He's the one who saves the day. They do get a little more attention than Andrew at times, but I've been told by many readers Andrew works best in small doses.

It's not really a *conscious* thing on my part. Really, it wasn't until I was answering your question that I thought about Sal, Jay and Oni and their flaws and non-MS-dom. I just write what works for the plot. Like I said before, perfection is terribly boring. There wouldn't really be a plot if they didn't have flaws and problems.

To tell you the truth, the only OCs I'm interested in reading in fanfic are ones that I'm convinced were necessary to show the existing cast in a new light. Usually that means Monster or Victim of the Week material. Sometimes it's a presumed but off stage character brought forward -- often somebody's mom or old flame brought in to show how much they've changed and make them see it themselves. (I also tend to put the fan-created child of canonical characters in here, although kidfic is not usually my thing for other reasons.)

Very occasionally, it's someone off the map completely -- I know someone who wrote a brilliant series of vignettes where the cast of Angel and Buffy interacted with a weapons salesperson. The OC functioned as an outside observer, a combination snarky narrator and stand-in for the audience.

What I don't want to see is the Adventures of Someone I've Never Heard Of For Their Own Sake, or (usually) the Relationship of Someone I've Never Heard of and a Cast Member, whether they're a Mary Sue or not. I read original fic for original characters. For fanfic, I want to see the stuff I'm already a fan of.

Here by way of su_herald.

Original characters often bother me in short pieces because I don't feel like I get the chance to know them. They feel undeveloped or like mere plot devices instead of people I can care about.

Some of the stories that have had OCs I liked are "Changes" by tabaqui with the character Derio; "Repossession" by Lazuli-kat with Pat and the gang; also the characters of The Twain in a series of stories "Deeply Hurt" "Deeply Loved" "Deeply Met" by I think kate_fire. Not sure of that author. All of these fics are longer, giving the author time to develop the OCs

Hope that helps.

I think the real difference between an original character and a mary sue is a combination of intent and believability.

A Mary Sue, as I understand the term, is a character who is a personification of the writer in some way, shape or form, and as such they are able to do more than anybody else, with no problems. That last bit, I think is the key.

Most of the Mary Sues that I have read, and sometimes they're not easily identifiable as Mary Sues at the beginning, they are in alot of ways very one, maybe two, dimensional characters.

For my original characters, I try and give them alot of depth. Several of my characters are based heavily on people I've met. Quinn, from Hunter's Heroes and Heavy Metal, has alot of the personality of a guy I was bantering back and forth with online prior to my writing that installment in Divergent Destinies. He's not super well developed, but then again, he's a supporting, guest character if you will. The original characters in An Eternal War, well, Harlequinn (Har'Lea'Quin) is from ShadowRun, but all the others (Sonja, Kylar, Terrell (sp?), Zeke) they are all characters who were developed over many years of gaming with my old crew. I know those characters backwards and forwards, and yes, there is a touch of me, Luke, Yuri and Gaming Bill in all of them. Does that make those characters Marty Stus? Not in my opinion. They're the characters we developed for that campaign, and had a good time doing it.

Now, I will say that I'm going to have fun with an upcoming story in Divergent Destinies (once I get CPP 9 done, which I am hoping to have another two scenes finished on today) where Xander is coming to Cincinnati on his road trip and meets up with a group of hunters. Yes, that group is going to be based on my friends (and I'm minimizing myself during it), but, they aren't going to be saving the world. I know that one of them is going to be hospitalized, again, during it, and its going to be overall funny with a few poignent moments in it. So, that's about as close as I'll come to Mary Sue-ing a story, but even then, they won't be supermen, just average guys who hate the darkness and decided to do something about it. And there will have been a large body count along the way, as their memorial will show.

Mary Sues don't tend to lose people.

So, I'd say that the tricks to making, or keeping, your characters solid, are:
A.) Develop them into real people. Give them strengths (not powers) and WEAKNESSES. What are their goals? Their motivations. Hates and dislikes? Quirks. One of the guys in the Cincinnati hunter group, and only one, is magically active. He also happens to be an electrician and tinkerer, so he'd much rather spend time in his workshop coming up with weapons than he would enchanting things for the rest of his group. The result? The mundanes in the group know more about magical theory and enchanting than he does, and have to, literally, drag him out of his workshop to get anything magical done, which they have all figured out and broken down into incremental steps for him.
B.) Let them fail from time to time. Nobody is perfect. We're, almost, all human, and screw up badly from time to time. Thats what helps us grow.
C.) It's ok for people and characters not to like each other. One of the characters in Cincinnati Hunter group is a real... Well, let's just say he says dumb things at times, and pretty much the completely wrong thing at the wrong time. When he meets Faith for the first time, he's going to open his mouth, and as soon as he's done speaking, the rest of his group is going to clear out from around him, because they KNOW he's gonna get hurt. And rightfully so. That's what makes his character him. He says dumb things, but he's a good guy, just his shock jock persona, well, not always a good idea.. (and, for the record, Gaming Bill said that that was what he'd say to Faith and he knows what the reaction is going to be... See, I research stupid character actions *grin*)

Ice
(who is now getting back to writing)

I've never fully understood the desire to write MarySue's into fics if I'm being honest. Most I cannot read past the first few chapters (once I've identified that character X is going to be a MarySue of the worst kind)...

But that's never caused me to stop reading fics with OCs in them. I like OCs, I like that we get to see someone else living in whatever world your particular piece of fanfic happens to be (mine and I'm assuming most of the people commenting here concentrates on the BTVS/ATS TV shows); and seeing how they view that world as it exists around them. I think most of the time, stories need OCs - or at the very least need 'mentioned' characters (such as Larry or Anne) being used and fleshed out a bit. Otherwise you're left with (in the case of BTVS) the Scoobs vs an established bad guy (cos wouldn't even a new baddie-of-the-week technically be an OC; and they at least deserve a little work being done on them).

I guess I just don't understand the need to create characters that just have some weird wish-fulfillment thing going on for the author. Apart from what happened with Spike in the later seasons of Buffy, has anyone watched a TV show with a true MarySue/MartyStu in it..? Or would you be likely to give in by the end of the pilot (assuming you forced yourself to sit through it that far)... the MS character seems to work for the action fic genre (and possibly other types too... a far-too-popular romantic lead/interest; the incredibly-wise-beyond-any-amount-of-years providing advice to one of the main charcaters; there are bound to be others but in BTVS fanfic at least the trend is for a heroic / physically undefeatable / intelligent newcomer to arrive in town and get the author's dream character); but most of those things seem to mainly be intended to work in a film setting/scenario - where it's only really trying to capture your attention for an hour or two at most. Think about the last films you watched (give yourself the last 5 or 10 or so; just in case the last one *was* your idea of perfection) - and transfer the basics of the characters/plot from that and spread them over 20(ish) episodes worth of TV - are you sure you'd want to sit through over 15 hours worth of it..? I'm not. So in my view MS's work well in a film setting but not a TV one... which is why when I read a fic involving an obvious MS, it feels like the author has taken a TV show I'm interested in... and made a very bad made-for-tv movie out of it... ...

Strayed from the topic a little bit... sorry.

As for my own stories; I don't think I've ever given much thought about the OCs I've created for my own stories. I tend to have some really basic stereotype (for a few extra characters that might prove yourself) playing at the back of my mind, and then sit down and get on with writing the story. They seem to expand from there. I'm not certain whether they'd be classed as MS's or not (a real risk I've found in whether OC's cross the MS line or not is when you need/choose to give them powers... that's something that needs to be done with care)... what comments people did make about them seemed pretty positive. But it's just as equally likely that those not commenting were simply being polite.

Hopefully my wandering brain didn't annoy you all too much. These are my thoughts (as they strayed back and forth across this topic); in all honestly they'd probably change (or at least be re-worded) if I commented at a different time...

Mike C