Is there a need for a OTP? Is enjoying Willow/Oz betraying Tara / gay characters everywhere? I don't think so. It's all in the enjoyment / buyability of the story.

That doesn't mean I don't have favorites. F/X is definately my favorite, cause' of the issues it's always an emotional kick when they get together (if well written). Does this mean I can't enjoy a BX story? Course' not, and I'm certainly not betraying anything, there's nothing to betray, liking one doesn't mean I'll stop liking the other. As long as the characters I like play a meaningful role in the story, I'll probably enjoy it.

But I can't really get into Xander slash, not unless his vamped / magicked / butt monkeyed by some bad. And Human!Xander/Vampire!Anyone as a serious pairing just leaves me shaking my head.

Also can't see Buffy/Faith. Sure, Faith would go for it, and while Buffy is bi (as in she likes men and vampire males) I don't think she'll ever trust Faith all that much.

So the believability of a 'ship' depends on the quality of the writing? I can buy that, there are certainly lots of pairings I would never normally have read were it nor for the fact that I knew the quality was high (either because the author was known to me or it had recc'd by someone who knows what I like). On the other hand I do have an OTP (FX - go on, pretend you're surprised!) and there is this tiny little voice that questions why I'm reading outside that. Maybe I'm just strange!

(Oh, and the Fuffy fics I tend to read are all incredibly dark - the lack of trust and other obstacles are usually the biggest part of those stories)

FX? OMG, what a surprise! *lying* :)


I don't think you're strange, but emotionally attached. We all pretty much are. It's why some people see Xander like he's never been in the wrong while others can't see any good in him. It's why some people love Spike so much they go against canon (and the writers and the actors) and others HATE the character.

And the OTP is pretty much a recipe for heartbreak, since chances of any of them being commited to canon are pretty much null.

Slash? As in, male slash? Yup, good joke dude.
Vamp!Anyone/Buffy? Dude, unlike the characters the actors are getting older, they won't be playing vamps for much longer.
Faith/Anyone? Huh, Eliza didn't seem all that interested in playing Faith TVS (AKA, can't really get out of SMG's shadow).

And so on, and so on. There's a reason 'And they lived happily ever after!' is the last line in the stories.

So, yeah, good writing equals believable ship. Of course some are easier than others. A story showing how Buffy & Xander find twu wuv can be easier than say Buffy falling madly in love with Faith. Less convincing needed, unless you're of the Buffy & Xander are like brother and sister types (which makes little sense to me, but to each it's own).

Just don't ship Giles with any of the girls / boys. Makes him look like a pervert who only got into the Watcher business to be near kids. Anya is okay, since she's the craddle robbing one. :)

I must say I find the way that most of fandom sees to be centred around 'ships, and the way people stick so avidly to a particular pairing a little hard to understand. I can appreciate many ships, canon and non-, but I tend not to go for fics where the story is the pairing, if you see what I mean. If it's really well-written (as is the case for a lot of people on my flist), I can appreciate it, but it still wouldn't be my regular fare. I certainly wouldn't think it 'unfaithful' to 'ship someone outside of one's OTP for them. That said - I guess I do have a bit of a thing for W/T, and while I have absolutely no problem with W being 'shipped with others before, after, or even during W/T (I'm thinking of Femail's S5 Spillow), I do feel a little funny about fics where Willow never got together with Tara, where she chose Oz instead in NMR or something. Not a whole lot funny. But a little. So I guess maybe I have a bit of the 'ship bug after all! :)

I guess the factors that make one like a particular 'ship or not probably include quality of writing, how much chemistry one perceives between the characters, how much one fancies the characters, and how much one identifies with the characters.

I don't think I have an OTP. I am fond of W/T. But I'm also quite a fan (in canon) of B/A, B/S (S6 not S7), S/Dr and W/Fr, and in fanon of B/X, F/X, S/A and perhaps S/W. Many others I think I would approve of, but haven't really read, e.g. W/X, B/G... I particularly like the idea of B/F, and I might even say that was my OTP as I just think there's such fabulous chemistry between them, except that I haven't actually read any. Could you point me to the good B/Fs whereof you speak please?

Anyway, yeah. Not quite sure where that ramble led. But that's my ten-pennorth!

Oh, and duh, Angel/Lilah! I like that one! *g*

Quick reply - Fuffy fic recs - you can't go wrong by starting off at Wicked & Divine (http://www.wickedndivine.com/main.html) - there's some not so great fics on there but the good far outshines the bad. I'll get a better list for you later.

(Oh - btw, did you see the post on the ITD Yahoo Group?)

Thanks, I'll check that out! :)

See my posts on the ITD Group.

I've never been able to do that OTP thing well either. I only write a few pairings but I'll read most of the others. Not writing certain pairings is more because I don't feel I can write certain characters well. Even some that I've been told I do write well, I'm not as comfortable writing and tend to go back to who I feel more comfortable with. Even ones I don't normally read (slash, femslash, a couple het pairings), I'll read if it's written by someone I normally read or, recced by them.

Hon, I read and write outside of my OTP all them time. It's not being fickle in the least! It's called expanding one's boundaries and embracing the new! Cherish your open-mindedness!


Gabrielle

Hmmmm. I have 3 OTP's. Willow/Oz, Willow/Tara and Oz/Xander. I do occasionally write outside these pairings, but it's usually with at least one of the characters form one of the OTP's. (Willow/Angel(us)) being the main one that comes to mind.

I also love reading Willow/Xander, but have never attempted writing it. And can see the latest one as well, in those circumstances but not if it happens a few years beforehand.

I've enjoyed writing Wesley in _inthedarkness but not sure who he'd be best paired with (although he is building up a strong relationship with Faith *wink wink*)

I think it's quite obvious that I don't actually have an OTP. I have pairings that I enjoy, pairings that I love, and pairings that I don't like, but I don't have a solid OTP. I have no problem with that, personally, and it really bugs me when people get all . . . 'no, you cannot pair ___ with ___ because it's just wrong and bad and wouldn't happen ever!' about a 'ship, be it canon or non.

Gotta ask . . . you had a moment of wanting to ship Buffy and Connor? Really?

Gotta ask . . . you had a moment of wanting to ship Buffy and Connor? Really? Not so much wanting to, because the Connor/Dawn thing we were setting up was at the forefront of where I was taking him, but I have to say that I remember the day we did that scene really well, and something about it just made me sit back and say yeah, maybe.

*g*

And on the OTP thing - you know me, I'm all about the angst, I don't see any pairing (or grouping) as impossible. It just depends on the writer being skilled enough to overcome the obstacles.

And on the OTP thing - you know me, I'm all about the angst, I don't see any pairing (or grouping) as impossible. It just depends on the writer being skilled enough to overcome the obstacles.

I dunno... I agree that mutual hatred is never an obstacle to a good 'ship for a sufficiently skilful writer, 'cos you can always play on the love/hate thing. But I think with some 'ships, it's just so hard to imagine that there could ever be anything between the characters... of course that's subjective, but there's some that I'd think even a good writer would have difficulty convincing many people. Buffy/Connor being a good example. Connor would totally go for Buffy, but the other way round... can't see it. He's just... not her type! At any rate, I don't think even a good writer could convince me of B/C. I might think, "yes, that's well-written, and she's made a pretty good effort at trying to make it believable, but... nah!"

Oooo - that almost sounds like a challenge! *g*

Pfff, Cordy and Buffy? Angel would totally kill him or at the very least change his memories so he'd be French or something, as far away as possible!

Ha!

I'd say - Yeah, go for it! Except I don't want my stomach churned to a pulp. I like my stomach. *g*

From the view of someone who doesn't write fic, just reads it occasionally. I do tend to read mainly the couples that I 'ship like Josh/Donna (TWW) but I'm happy to read other 'ships too. It depends on the writing and also if I can imagine the two characters together in the first place though.
When I was on the underground today I noticed an advert for an event at the SECC on Oct 8th for people thinking of starting their own business. I don't know if you'd heard about it already or not but it might give you an idea on how to start planning your bookshop :)

Ooo - thanks for that Laura, I'll check out the SECC site!

No problem. It's run by business gateway, so I'm sure they will have something on that site too.

That is a really interesting poll - thanks for linking to it! I voted, and then read your comments, and I ended up voting the same as you (although in the more than 5 years cateogry because I've been kinda active in the SW fandom since '95 - wow, ten years in fandom, maybe it's time for me to get a life!). It's interesting that that response - having an OTP but reading other pairings so long as the OTP is recognized/respected - was actually relatively low in the response.

Maybe we're both strange!

Oh and the W/X fic? I still really like the idea, it's the Willow voice I was having trouble with (as well as the whole 'weren't you gay?' problem), so I'm going to hang onto the basic idea and work on it when/if I have time.

I tend to be annoying with my OTP-ishness.

Then again, I write for myself really, I'm quite self-centered that way, so I just post what I enjoy at any given time. Reading-wise, although it might not seem like it, I do enjoy any pairing really. I'm not so much into slash but I have read the odd fic there too.

So basically, when I'm writing, I'm just in it for my own gratification and as such mostly always go back to my OTP. As a reader, I find as much enjoyment in any pairing/gen fic out there if it's well written.

Not annoying at all - dedicated is probably the word. And yet you write outwith your OTP - unless Wicked is leading somewhere else? *g*

Seems to be that you have the same response most people have had though - if the quality in writing is there then the pairing (or lack thereof) doesn't matter. I'm intrigued - since you are one of the people who sticks to your pairing of choice, will you willingly read anything that features that pairing, what I mean by that is will you read a fic by someone you've never read and which has come out of nowhere before simply because of the pairing?

:)

My reasons for liking B/X are pretty straight forward. Buffy was in fact my favorite character of the show for the first 4/5 seasons and after that I was pretty much clinging at straws just to hope to understand her anymore. By the end of the show, the admirable hero she had been was lost to me. But by seeing her through Xander's eyes post-Dirty Girls, I was able to reconnect. That's why I'm such a big B/X fan. Because of the impact such a connection would have on her character for me.

Outside of this, which is almost my sole reason for writing fanfic at all, I have experimented with other pairings/non-pairing stories. "Wicked!" is my only posted example and as it revolves around some rather graphic/gruesome themes I have less of a problem with it. It's actually more of a Willow-centric fic than anything. Oh, and Scarred is almost gen.

I wrote some D/X and even attempted some F/X a while back. I always came back to the fact that I simply could not relate to the characters honestly enough. I was writing Faith-as-Buffy or Dawn-as-Buffy and that's dishonest and boring.

As a reader though, I really am eclectic. I've even read some X/S and not immediately gouged my eyes out afterward *g*

So yes, the quality of the story is everything really. Would the OTP that dictates most of what I write influence what I read? Of course. I actively hunt for more B/X fic. I've read both good and bad fic with Buffy and Xander as a pairing. There again, the quality has an influence. I might search for such stories but if the ones I find are just too abysmally written, my fan-love for the pairing won't let me move beyond that and I just stop reading.

I do envy your ability to empathize with Buffy. I lost what little connection I had with her character in season two when she lost the inner strength she'd found in Prophecy Girl. Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike her at all, hell I made some *really* bad choices in my early 20s which would make the whole Spuffy thing look like a fairy tale, but I couldn't connect with her. I did connect with Willow until about midway through season six when one of the writers decided to use her arc as a Martiphor - sorry, that should be 'metaphor' for Teh Evols of Magic. Oh, sorry, that should be the evils of addiction, dammit I don't know what's wrong with this keyboard tonight...

Xander, well I always could get a read on him, where he was at, the basic idealism he tried to cling too, and then for some reason I connected with Faith. (There's the whole trying to prove herself to people she's wronged thing going on there that hits a little closer to home than is probably healthy for me!) So of all the characters in the show, the only ones I could connect with at the end were Xander and Faith. Hence my OTP. I still love all the characters (including Spike - I have theories about season seven Spike, which if I ever get over this block in one of my fics I will put forward!) but I don't understand most of them any more.

I envy people - like you - who do.

and pretend the icon is a relevant BtVS 'verse one rather than my default River one - I only just realised I'm logged in as one of my RPG personas and couldn't pick a proper icon - sorry!

I only stopped understanding Buffy in Season 6. Until then there were things I didn't like in her character, she was written as fairly weak sometimes, self centered and petty but I only lost the understanding on Season 6.
No it wasn't the Spike thing, it was 'I came back from heaven thing'. From then on all her decisions had a 'She's mad with pain / withdrawal.' vibe to it. How do you write someone how's experienced Heaven? And BTW, she KNOWS there's a Heaven, why the hell is she fighting so hard to keep her friends alive? Dawn dies? Well, she had a pretty decent life, was even going to sacrifice herself for the world, she's Heaven material for sure. Demon going to kill off your friends? The same people who've been saving the World for a few years now? Heaven!

Yeah, have I mentioned I tend to overanalyse stuff?

Oh, I don't understand Buffy. Seriously, I don't. But I really liked Xander as a character. Enjoyed his humor and his flaws. He was the most believable of all the characters for me. He didn't necessarily believe everything was a-okay by the end, sure. But his love for his friends remained constant. And it's through him, by using him as a lens almost, that I can sorta get more prespective on all that.

Without the benefit of that lens, Buffy-as-a-character was distorted beyond repair by the end :(

So I don't read Buffy-alone fics, for example, and it's hard to read a fic that pairs her with someone else. Xander has to play a large role in those stories, either romantically or as a friend and always as an integral part of the plot, or I won't go near them. Without a convincing portrayal of his character to humanize things for me, it is very hard to relate to Buffy or any of them in fact.

In as much as any other characters by themselves are interesting, then Faith is a contender too. It's unfair really, a direct result of the fact that her character was less involved in the series and therefore was less ground down by the end. If she had been in all 7 seasons, she might not have been so interesting. As things stand though, Buffy's persona is now fully defined and therefore less fun to explore. Faith on the other hand is an almost blank canvas with a lot of material to build from, so of the two Slayers, character-wise, she is a lot more interesting.

I really do like your icon, BTW :)

And just to piss you off, I'll use a WIP one of mine where I abused the sharpness filter *g*

"prespective" of course being what comes before perspective. *Wanders off muttering about stoopid typos*

Is it just me being fickle and indecisive? Is it just the mark of good writing that can ‘sell’ a ship? Some of you have very definite OTPs from which you don’t stray – why is that?

Here via su_herald. I'm more with you on moving from ship to ship, but I tend to see it a different way. I've written well over 100 fics, and I've shipped a heck of a lot of different, and mutually exclusive, ships. I've done B/A and B/S and S/Dru. Heck, I've done Tara/Clem. I don't tend to gravitate towards specific ships so much as specific characters. It almost seems like that's the same thing you're experiencing: you like Faith, you like Xander, you like Lindsey, you like Wesley. Hence you tend to write them. I have a thing for Spike, Dru, Darla, Angel, Willow, etc. So I tend to write them. I really don't see the need to be dedicated to only one ship.

This is a hard one for me to answer, I've tried answering it several times.

Anyhow personally I think it all comes down to your personality. And that's not to say you're fickle or indecisive because you don't focus on one pairing. I find when I am writing, I get bored if I write the same thing over and over again, whether that's a pairing, genre, theme, whatever.

When it comes to reading, I find the stories tend to bleed together. There's only so many times you can see Character A hooking up with Characer B, especially if they are an unconventional character. A prime example of what I mean is the Willow/Angel ship, of which I am a huge fan. I've lost count of how many fics I've read where the two hooked up because Angelus is on the loose and decides to use Willow as a weapon against Buffy or that Angel and Willow form a connection because she resouls him. For me it starts to get boring because I can start to connect the dots and realize where the fic is leading to. There's very few authors that can leave me guessing as to where the plot is heading to (velvetwhip comes to mind as being one of the few people who pair W/A and still come up with some original.)

So for me it's not because I am fickle, it's just boredom. I don't mind reading the same story over and over as long as it keeps me entertained.

Sorry for rambling....

I know that for me, my straying from my OTP initially happened because I was bitten by a plot bunny that my OTP wouldn't work for. While you can love a couple together, not all plots would work for those characters, so you try working the plot with other characters. If feedback is positive for the new venture, then you're more likely to try it again. I know that my OTP (Willow/Giles) certainly isn't a hugely popular one, but there are people who still enjoy it.

Also, as our favorite parings are being written less by others, we need to start reading our favorite characters with other people. My shifts often came about by reading threesomes involving my OTP, then reading stories with the other character and Willow. Then read a threesome with those two and someone else, then that someone with Willow. Right there you've got 5 combinations! As other characters rise in our esteem (Lindsey), we want to see him with our favorite character (Willow) too. Eventually, I just wanted to see my favorite men together, without Willow.